Episode 84:

Hello everyone, and welcome to The Upstream Leader. I am excited for our conversation today. We are talking about life beyond labels and what it means to be more than just an accountant. For that conversation, I have with me today, Kelsey O’Connor, who is a graduate of NC State, graduated back in 2023. Kelsey, glad to have you on the show.

Thank you so much for having me! I’m so glad to be here.

Yeah! So somebody mentioned—I don’t even remember who it was—but somebody mentioned to me your commencement address from May of 2023, and they said, you have got to go watch this. Especially, it was, we were at a softball tournament; my oldest two play softball, so I went and watched it. Immediately I thought, “T his is so much more than just softball. This is so much more than just a commencement address. This is a lesson that so many people need to hear about moving past the labels that we put on ourselves from an identity standpoint.” So I’m excited to talk to you about that. But before I do, I’m going to start the conversation the same way I start all of our conversations on The Upstream Leader, which is how did you become the leader that you are today?

Well, first of all, thank you. I really appreciate that, and I’m so glad you came across the speech. But I would say probably two things: One, the people in my life, so my parents, coaches, people that really taught me leadership is more about your actions than your words, and so really modeling for me and fostering the idea that leadership is about fostering leadership in others and lifting other people up, leading by example. And so even throughout sports or whatever it was that I was involved in, really learning servant leadership and empathetic leadership. That is not always about being the most vocal person in the room, but it’s about lifting other people up and drawing out other people’s strengths and creating that environment to do so. And then, when you do have something to say, people are more likely to listen, you are more likely to make an impact when you have something that’s intentional that you want to get across. So I would say that idea of leadership being modeled in great ways, and also just being fostered throughout growing up from my coaches and people in my life, really shaped who I am as a leader.

But I would also say, maybe for listeners that are thinking, I don’t have necessarily someone in my life showing me that way or helping me figure out the kind of leader I am, I would say my education, or just listening, would be how I’ve also grown as a leader. So leadership is fostered through listening—just from listening to people’s stories, listening to different perspectives—the more that I listen, the more I’m just able to face situations in life through different lenses and perspectives, and really just understand where people are coming from. So I would just say, listening is how I became the leader that I am and, you know, being able to make an impact, I like to think, and also just my ability to make decisions and feel like I have confidence in those decisions and confidence that I’m making a positive impact on people when I do make leadership decisions, or I am on a team or in a group. So I would say, even if you don’t have someone that’s necessarily showing you a great way to lead, you know, we can also learn from people that we don’t necessarily want to emulate, and we can also just learn from listening to others.

Appreciate that point, and it’s an important one. I like the fact that you call it out because so many, when they think about how they were shaped and how they became who they are, it’s always, well, this person was a great example, this person was a great example. We hear that so much, and whether it’s other podcasts or books or articles, it’s always, I want to give credit to this person who was so positive in my life. So I really like the fact that you point out that you don’t have to have someone there, that you can take the ownership and you can go figure out how to become a good leader by listening, and even like you said, finding what you don’t want to become. So that’s a really important point. Thank you for sharing that.

So for the listeners that may not be familiar with you and your story, your idea—and this concept of talking about people beyond labels, and who do they want to be rather than what do they do—give us just a little bit of your background and your story. How did this come about and what is the impact that it has had on you?

Yeah, so I grew up playing softball. And I had other parts of my identity in school and all these other things, but I was really competitive, and so succeeding at school, succeeding at softball, I wanted to be the best in everything  and that carried into college for me. I ended up playing softball at North Carolina State. And when I got to North Carolina State, I was just really wrapped up in the excitement and the dream of being a Division I athlete, which was something I had been working for since I was 10 years old, probably younger. I grew up traveling the country, playing travel ball, going to practices and training, waking up early, and just all of the things that it takes to kind of get to that place.

So I get to NC State and it’s just this dream, and I was also encouraged to get involved in other things. So I get to NC State, and then I get a research job once I get on campus, and I’m navigating the student-athlete schedule with weightlifting and practices, and I’m really just so wrapped up in everything that I’m getting to do for the school and taking a lot of pride in that. But one of the things that came with that was getting wrapped up in my accomplishments, my achievements, I obviously had a lot of goals of what I wanted to accomplish while I was there—on the softball field as a student. I studied social work and I was in an honors program, so I was doing a lot of things that I was really proud of.

Then my junior year, I suffered a really bad concussion. It was a random day at practice, it was the fall of my junior year, and it hadn’t necessarily been everything that I was expecting beforehand: Part of my college career was during COVID and a lot of life even just got zeroed into softball right before this injury because we had lost this balance of going to class, seeing friends, and so for about a year and a half before this injury, it was just softball, home, and then softball. And so I’d gotten really wrapped up in going for this goal and, you know, defining myself as an athlete, defining myself as a successful student, all of these things. I get into a base-running collision, I get a concussion, and that just changes everything instantly.

Unfortunately, I had had other concussions before when I was in high school, and so because I had had them before, this was worse, and I knew this was worse, and it was a lot more severe. So over the next couple of weeks after I’d gotten injured, it was just kind of a whirlwind of events because I was really struggling. So I took the fall off of softball. I was seeing six doctors. I was talking about my jaw—it was a jaw and a neck and a head injury. So I’m going to all these different doctors. I’m starting to get emails that I’m going to fail my classes. I’m just scrambling to kind of keep myself in school and keep myself together. Ultimately, I want to say after like six or seven weeks, I decided to medically retire from softball. Part of the tricky thing too was it was an invisible injury, so I didn’t necessarily have a lot of support from my softball program because in their mind because I looked okay, I was okay—”Why aren’t you back yet? You look fine,” not really understanding how these injuries had compounded.

So pretty much all at once, I had gone from being a Divsion I athlete and a great student, filling my calendar to the max, to having no clue if I was gonna get better, not being a great student because I was really struggling to read, I had blurry vision, and after a few weeks, I had some late-onset cognitive symptoms, so I was struggling to articulate my thoughts. I was in this state of confusion. I started having mood swings, which is part of my reason to medically retire because I just didn’t even recognize the person that I was. I knew softball wasn’t going to last forever, but my career path was social work, and now I couldn’t even keep up in a conversation, and I wasn’t sure if I could finish my degree. So even these things that I’d kind of put other investment into, that was shattered. My community was gone. My dream of playing softball was over abruptly, and my athletic ability, my abilities to work out without pain, just everything that I knew myself to be and my world and my identity pretty much shattered overnight.

So how—because I can’t even imagine just how challenging, especially when you’re achievement-driven, right? And so many high performers are. They’re achievement-driven, and what’s interesting is even in the commencement address, when you were being introduced, all the accolades, right? All of the accomplishments were still there.

Thank you!

And then you get up and you start talking about, you know, it’s more than the labels, even though inherently we just kind of gravitate toward that. And I don’t know if it’s just because it’s easier, because it’s what’s visible, like you said, right? It’s not an invisible thing. It’s like, well, here’s this, here’s this trophy, here’s that grade, here’s this thing, what have you. How were you able to move past that and redefine who you are through something other than what you were doing? Because I know one of the concepts that was in your commencement speech that I absolutely loved is talking about a “human being” rather than a “human doing.” It sounds like that probably came out of this a little bit since you were not being able to do all of the same things. How did you move through that?

I mean, it’s such a good question because, you know, even the phrase, “It’s who you are on the inside, not the outside,” and different things like that, they’re so great to say, but then I really struggled with, well, what does that even mean? How do I even define who I am on the inside? How do I even figure that out? Because I was a D1 athlete, I was a researcher, I was all of these things that I kind of intertwined that. How am I supposed to even describe who I am on the inside if I’m not the same? So I think that process at first, it was just really honoring what I had lost. Just really allowing myself to be sad about it for a little bit and recognize that I might not be moving forward, I might not have achieved the goals that I wanted to, but looking back at it, even underneath those labels, were attributes and qualities that I had built up throughout my time. No, I wasn’t gonna have the chance to go out on a field and win a championship, but I had really built up strength and discipline and commitment or I had really done a good job of being balanced. I was a good multitasker. I was organized, I was empathetic. I was a good teammate. I was starting to see some of the qualities that were gonna carry me throughout my life, even though the labels attached to them were gone.

I allowed myself to feel through it, then I just, I talk about it in my speech, but I actually put it in a notes app on my phone, and I made this resolution to kind of fix the way that I was seeing myself, because I was super hard on myself at first, and I really struggled to have compassion for myself, and I knew that it would actually be better if I started with other people. So when other people weren’t in the room, or other people weren’t around, it is easier to talk about them by their labels or introduce somebody or ask them what they’re doing, so even working through that process of, okay, well, then what do I describe them by? And so I came up with three different things and it’s really just their attitude, how they treat other people, and their unique qualities. So I really worked on when people aren’t in a room—or when they are—introducing my brother as optimistic and funny and just welcoming, he just lights up a room and really describing his energy. My dad, who’s just strong and always there and he’s just reliable and he’s kind and really just describing the energy of the people in my life before I start telling you what their job is and what they do. The more I started to work on that, just actively in the way that I spoke and the way that I thought of other people, the more it really helped me to flip that concept and apply it to myself too, and start appreciating myself for who I was.

I didn’t know if I was going to get better. I didn’t know if I was going to achieve, you know, all those things, but just really deciding that regardless of what I do end up accomplishing or not accomplishing, what kind of attitude do I have every day? What kind of energy am I putting out into the world when I talk to a stranger? Am I respectful? Am I kind? Am I authentic? People can pick up on your energy. So am I trying to be someone else or am I really being myself and allowing myself to be strong and kind at the same time and just allowing that to matter on the daily more than what it is I end up achieving or not achieving.

Any recommendations, tips for someone who is very achievement-driven, right? Because this podcast, a lot of our listeners are accountants, they’re high performers, they’re doing a lot of things, right? They want to achieve, they want to get that next thing, whether it’s an award or a promotion or whatever it may be. How do you detach your identity and your worth from those achievements and make that transition to focusing more on the qualities, what makes somebody unique, their attitude, the way they treat others, just from a functional standpoint, how do you do that? Is it a lot of reflection? How are you able to do that? And how do you, I guess, maintain that? Because it’s not like you didn’t go on to continue to achieve great things, but you don’t introduce yourself that way, right? As you said, now you think about more of those other qualities. So how do you effectively do that for someone?

Yeah, I love that question because when I talk about “Life Beyond Labels,” I always try to add that it’s not life without labels and your accomplishments don’t matter, because they should be celebrated, you should be proud of those things, right? So it’s not that everything should just be washed away and it shouldn’t matter at all. I think about it every day. I have a tendency to want to start talking about what I’m doing and what I’ve achieved lately. So it’s definitely a daily practice and a daily reflection. I would say maybe two things: The first one is, this sounds really cheesy, but I make a to-do list and then sometimes I’ll make a to-be list. I’m someone who is very goal-oriented. I write down the steps of what I want to get done. Obviously, very high achievers, accountants, high performers are going to list out their calendar and what they need to get done. So at the end of the day or the beginning, I try to put something on my list that falls into the kind of attitude I have throughout the day—if I was kind to someone, how I treated someone. Then when I appreciated myself, right, allowed someone else to be themselves.

So I’ll make a list of, I got this test done. I finished my homework. I ran these errands. Then I’ll also try to reflect on, I talked to the cashier for 10 minutes and asked about her day and asked about how her life was and I listened to her when she decided to tell me her life story. Or I let someone go in front of me in line. Or I really allowed myself to be quiet in that space and not judge myself when I wish I had said something better. So I kind of make this list of little things throughout the day to recognize, am I being the person that I want to be? Am I being the person that I dream of? Am I modeling that for myself? So even just a functional list of things, what you get done tactically and then what kind of person do you want to be? And did you act that way today?

Then I would say the second is just how you describe people, how you speak out loud, that’s a practice, and it’s a skill that can be developed. When you catch yourself wanting to introduce somebody by their job, just pause and maybe add in a few qualities or attributes first, and then go on to talk about the great things that they do. I use my brother as an example all the time because it’s so hard to not want to talk about his job. I explain that he’s funny and he’s optimistic and he’s this just ball of energy, but he also works for SportsCenter, which I think is so cool and I want to tell people and I get excited, but I try to draw myself back in and the way that I practice speaking about people and myself, so that it’s at the top of my mind, like, no, this comes first, and then the tangible things come second.

So it really is teaching that awareness of, think about the person before you think about the accomplishments. If you can do that for others, inherently, you’ll start to do that for yourself, is what it sounds like you’re saying. I really like that. So I want to go a couple of different places here. So let’s go to the end of someone’s career. One of the things that’s happening in our profession right now is, and it’s like most professions, right? There’s a ton of retirements. The baby boomer generation is retiring. They’re still retiring, it was a big generation, it lasted a while, they’re still retiring. For many of them, it’s really difficult. What I have found is, it’s not so much letting go of the work—it is a little bit of letting go of the work, because many of them have worked a lot and they love what they do—but it’s as much as anything, they can’t stop being an accountant, and they can’t think through, when Monday morning comes, the day after I retire, and I’m no longer Jeremy the CPA or Jeremy the accountant, what am I? That tends to be a bit of a terrifying thought.

So for someone that is approaching that kind of milestone in their life of retiring and becoming, in a way, someone new from a what they do standpoint, what would you recommend that they do to prepare for that transition, which obviously will be much less abrupt than the transition that you were forced to deal with, but it’s a transition that is perhaps similar in the fact that the thing that they’ve always done is no longer the thing that they will do. How would you recommend that they prepare to make that transition to retirement?

I really love that question because it is a similar experience, and I found it so fascinating when I delivered the commencement speech, and when I’ve done some talks, I get a lot of people that are struggling with retirement and having been in their career for 20, 30, 40 years. To prepare for that transition, I would say doing things to invest your time outside of your work, spending time with your family if you have your family around, spending time with people, or just developing hobbies, reading, journaling, maybe reflecting on your career and what it’s taught you. Even if you’re not a written journaler, even if you’re just video journaling or just having a way of sitting and reflecting on what kind of qualities that you’ve had to have to be a good accountant, and how that is gonna exist even when the job is done—and so, I would say really taking that time to reflect on all of the ways and the qualities that you’ve developed throughout your career in order to do that job well, because you’re always going to be that person. And so you might not be an accountant, but you will always be an accountant because you’ve developed these skills and these qualities and these abilities, and that never leaves you, and you should be really proud of that.

Yeah.

And then investing your time and building up those reps of life outside of accounting or life outside of your job so that when you do get to that point, you have those reps of really knowing, okay, I know what it feels like to do something else and to know that there’s life outside of it. Because if I spend all of my brain power and all of my time thinking about it, being in it, running the race, and then I stop, that’s where life gets really tough and messy and we can’t always control that. But as much as you can, I would say, even for me, I did some volunteering, or I tried to read and write, and even just those little moments of doing something outside of sport gave me the ability to see clearly, there is life outside of sport, or there is life outside of your job, and it’s only going to get a little easier and a little better from my perspective the more time you spend away from it because you realize how much more there really is to enjoy.

So, if you were talking to somebody then early in their career, it sounds like that kind of holds true in both cases, is, if they’re trying to figure out, okay, I’m very achievement driven, what do I do? Not what am I becoming or who am I becoming? But very fixated on those labels. As you said earlier, it’s life beyond, not life without labels. How do you, early in your career when you’re at your most competitive, so when you’re just wanting to be as great as you can be, how do you balance that out and not lose the edge, right, that the competitiveness can give you?

Yes, because honestly, I’m still a very competitive person. I love that. I’m still kind of back in that now, now that I’m a few years removed and I’m back in early career mode, I’m competitive, I’m trying to work all day and all night kind of thing. But taking the time, forcing yourself to take the time to slow down and go have a life moment, go eat lunch outside, even if it’s ten minutes, like put your feet in the grass, go outside for a walk, and all of that sounds really cliché and very normal, but when I get really caught up in the loop and the race and the achievements, even just taking the time to eat a meal without my phone or, you know, take five minutes before I go to sleep and different things like that, forcing myself to take care of my basic needs and just stop in the middle of the day and appreciate the day and where my feet are—you don’t lose an edge. I actually think it gives you a better edge. I actually think it gives you more appreciation and more drive for your goals and what you are doing and how far you’ve come when you take a moment to just be where your feet are.

So you’re almost really putting yourself ahead in both ways when you take a moment to slow down and live your life in the moment because you kind of get to enjoy some of that success or even just the process of it. Maybe you start to fall in love with the process because you’re recognizing the days and they’re not just skating by you. So I would say taking time to slow down actually gives you more of an edge. At least that’s what I have found. Slowing down in the middle of my day makes me more productive, makes me more excited for the future I want to build and where I’m going, but keeps me where I am right now.

What I really like about that is, it’s quite simple, really. It doesn’t have to be overthought, it seems like we kind of do that sometimes, we try to make it more complicated than it, maybe it perhaps it needs to be. So I really like the simplicity of just taking the time to be where you’re at, can be really helpful to help you keep that edge.

Yeah, exactly.

Very good. So, you mentioned, one of the last things you mentioned in your talk was to look beyond our labels to appreciate who we really are and appreciate others for who they really are. And you said that in your program, there was a bit of the community aspect lost, partially because on the outside, you looked fine, but the injury was not visible. I know that you did, you contributed to research work in the areas of emotional intelligence, and your degree is in social work, and working with people.

Yes!

So kind of going in a slightly different direction: How can professionals—and I say professionals because that’s our audience, let’s just break it down a little bit more—how can we just be better human beings and just be aware of the things that others are going through and practice that empathy to say, maybe something’s going on that I don’t know, but it doesn’t mean it’s not happening? How do you recommend that, whether it’s in society as a whole or in the business world, how do you practice that emotional intelligence in a way that doesn’t feel intrusive, right? Because nobody wants to go around and say, do you have anything going on? Like, are you okay today? Anything like that. But it still honors the fact that somebody could be struggling with something that you don’t actually know, and you can’t actually see it, but it doesn’t mean it’s not there. How do we practice that empathy and that compassion most effectively?

Oh, I love that question so much. Honestly, I’ll say one of the things that I do, and I think is the best for me, is I kind of always assume that someone’s going through something because I feel like it’s actually better to just assume that they are and then treat it with compassion, than to assume that everyone’s not and then say something, do something and then, oh my gosh, it’s too late, I had no idea you were going through that. I wish I could take that back. Because I don’t think there’s any harm in giving someone the benefit of the doubt and just saying maybe they’re going through something, and they don’t want to tell me. As you mentioned, you know, it’s not always about asking, hey, what’s going on with you? What are you going through? Because A, you’re not always going to get a straight answer. B, somebody might not be ready to talk about it or they might brush it off or whatever happens. So I would almost say just assuming that people are going through things, because everyone is. And we might have a different level of what we think is bad and what we think is a minor inconvenience compared to what we’re going through, but at the end of the day, everyone’s going through something, so I might as well just assume that there’s something going on in your life that I don’t know. So why wouldn’t I treat you with patience and compassion and empathy? But I don’t think that discounts accountability either.

So when I was having my injury, for example, my professors and the professionals in my life who had to keep me on track—or not, that wasn’t their job to keep me on track, but I had to uphold standards. If I wanted to graduate or complete a class, I wasn’t just going to get passed. What I loved about my Social Work department and some of my professors was they were really flexible and just coming right on and saying, “I’m so sorry that this is happening for you.” They didn’t even know every detail, but they just even assumed I’m not sharing everything but something’s going on. “We’re going to adjust the date for you. We want to work with you. Are you going to be able to finish the semester? If so, this is your deadline. If not, let’s talk about it.” And just having that flexibility to have a conversation and be open to hearing what I had to say versus the hardcore, “Well, get over it, be tougher, be stronger,” which is what I was pushing myself to do most of my early life was just get over it, shut up, keep going.

So I would say for anybody, just being flexible in your thinking and treating people with compassion by default, and then, you know, also having accountability and forgiveness and accountability and compassion can all exist at the same time, and if someone has the courage to tell you what they’re going through, to believe them. If you don’t see it, to still believe them, and I see that a lot with even just people that I’ve spoken to who have invisible injuries, illnesses, losses that I’ve talked to from different speeches and things like that who have said like, they’ve dealt with the same thing where people just assume that they’re going through nothing instead of assuming the latter, that maybe something’s going on and might as well be nice.

Forgiveness, compassion, and accountability can all exist. I think that is such an important message. And as you said, if we default to compassion and empathy, there’s not a lot of bad that comes from that. I mean, what a great society that could be if we just all approach each other with compassion and empathy, and you’re struggling with something I don’t know about? There’s a really good chance of it. But at the same time, we can still hold people accountable. Sure, we may have to be a bit flexible, and we may have to adapt a little bit, but it doesn’t mean we can’t hold people accountable. And I would say for anyone that’s going through something, and I agree, we all are at some point, we all have at some point, if we’re not currently—it’s not a free pass for accountability, right? And you know, expect and hope and maybe drive that compassion that you need, but don’t fault people for trying to hold you accountable as well because they can all coexist, I think is really important. That accountability in the face of compassion is not a bad thing. They’re not counterproductive. In fact, they can actually both be very beneficial and positive for an individual.

Yeah, sometimes it is compassionate to hold people accountable, because you want them to be their best self, or you want them to get back on track, so yeah, exactly, sometimes they’re the same thing.

Yeah, very good. Well, I’ve got two questions that I want to end with. One of them, I will readily admit, is because I have three daughters, two of which are currently playing competitive softball. What recommendations or advice would you give to younger athletes, 12, 10, and seven are my three girls and the 12 and 10 year old both play right now. What advice would you have for them about proactively not getting too caught up in the labels? Again, it’s not bad to have them, but to figure out, even at those early ages, how do you not get so caught up in the labels that, you know, are fixated just on what you do rather than who you’re becoming?

First of all, I love that they play, and I love that, so I’m going to have to reel myself in, because I could just spit out so much advice to them. I just love that so much. I would say, if I were to give advice that my actual younger self would have listened to, because I think my instinct is to say affirmations, but you know, as a kid you’re like, “Okay, sure, I guess I’ll write down some affirmations.” But it’s tough to believe them, it’s tough to practice, like, things that are really applicable to that age, I would like to think. I would say number one, spending time outside of your sport and your achievement is going to make you better. Even just as we said as professionals, spending time building your identity is going to make you confident in your skin because you start to develop a sense of who you are outside of the field and that’s actually going to make you a more confident person, which is in turn going to help you on the field. And so looking at time away from sport not as laziness and not as distraction, but truly allowing yourself to find your identity, and that’s going to build your confidence as a person and as a human being. So reading, writing, being with other people, whatever that is for you, drawing, it doesn’t even matter. Just finding time for other things is going to balance you out mentally. I would say that’s super important and it doesn’t make you lazy.

I would also say self-talk is really huge, especially for young athletes, because especially as a young athlete, your major percentage of your life has been in the sport. So you don’t really even have, you know, it’s not your fault that you don’t have reps outside of it. You’re only able to see in this small lens and until you start living outside of it, of course, it’s going to take up your mind space and your stress and your, you know, thoughts. So I would say being kind to your mind and talking to yourself like you would talk to a teammate or a friend, that’s really going to carry you far. Because when we’re looking at our performance as tied to our worth, that’s when our self-talk can kind of get twisted up in that too and saying, “Oh, I suck today. So I suck as a person,” or “I am slow,” or “I’m this and that.” And you’re the voice in your mind is really going to shape how you feel about yourself and how you attach your worth to your performance or just in the person that you’re being. So just talking to yourself like a teammate or like a friend, I think, especially as a younger athlete is p robably one of the most important things I could say.

I love that. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. For going kind of back to our normal audience, professionals, accountants, those that are in the business world, any resources that you would recommend for them if they are, you know, maybe they’re struggling in this area and they’re trying to find maybe a book, a TED Talk. What would you recommend? Obviously, I’m going to recommend your commencement address. I thought that was wonderful and something they should definitely listen to.

Thank you!

What other resources out there would you recommend that are just kind of your go to in this topic?

Oh, wow. That’s a really great question. Honestly, I can’t really think of specific names of podcasts, but I listen to podcasts of retired athletes and professionals. There’s a ton out there too. And I would say like, just googling other people’s stories. Honestly, I will sit on Google and read about people that have retired from different things. And it makes me feel better because I feel like I’m not alone when I start reading about the emotions and the feelings of other people. So I would even say as simple as it is, googling other people that have experienced this and then really recognizing, “Oh, so many people in my position are feeling the same way and they got over it this way, or they got over it however way.” So yeah, I would honestly just say googling other people’s stories. And I feel so bad that I don’t have anything necessarily top of mind for the topic, but maybe I’ll get back to you on that.

Yeah, no, that sounds great. And you know, I hadn’t ever really thought about it, but some of the best books that come to mind as far as just understanding somebody else’s mindset are retired individuals, right, that have written their memoirs or their, you know, somebody’s written a biography about them. It’s always fascinating to just kind of get into their head a little bit and how they were thinking about things. So I appreciate that. Thank you. If folks wanna reach out to you, I know you do some keynote speaking and, uh, other workshops and things, how can they find you, and what’s the best way to get in contact with you?

Yes, thank you for asking. So my website is KelseyOConnor.Net. O’Connor is spelled with an “OR,” I feel like I need to clarify that. On social media it’s @KelsOConnor6. So you can also send me a message through social media or through my website—there’s a message form there as well.

Wonderful. Kelsey, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me today. This has been a really fun conversation. I think it’s been really insightful and will help a lot of people at various stages in their career. So thank you so much for joining me on The Upstream Leader.

Thank you. I appreciate it. This was awesome. Thank you so much for having me.